We all have problems - Avantha Arachchi, Jessica Simmons

Guests Avantha Arachchi, Director of Talent and Operations at Gerber Technology, and Jessica Simmons of Onfido discuss the importance of community, people as a business function, and homegrown bootstrapped HR.

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​Nate:               
Great. So today I'm excited to be joined by two guests. I have Avantha and Jessica with me. Thank you guys for joining.

Avantha:           
Thanks for having us.

Jessica:           
Hello.

Nate:               
I have a plan to cover a lot of ground here, but before that, Jessica, maybe you can share with everybody a little bit about yourself and then your current role. What you're up to today.

Jessica:           
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I started with nonprofit management for a cafe here in San Francisco and it was a really nice way to kick off my people career. After about five years I moved into the tech world and started working for a startup that was about 30 people. We were a bootstrapped company and completely self funded and managed to reach profitability, which was really awesome. I was the first non product, non sales hire. I was able to start our mini people team there, which was really exciting. And then more recently I've been at a global tech startup that's about 250 people total. And I manage a team of about 40 people here in the States. It's a nice change of pace because we're pretty well funded by Salesforce and Microsoft. And so it's been a nice kind of ... a different way to experience the tech world from being part of a bootstrapped company for so long. So that's what I've been up to as of late.

Nate:               
Awesome. And Avantha, you? What's your story?

Avantha:           
Yeah, so I started out in a very, very different world. I actually started as a behavioral analyst for a police department. Very, very different than where I am today. But, I see that a lot of it, it's actually colored the way that I think about people and organization now. Looking at how to be able to help people understand themselves and their own skillset, help understand how groups at companies can work better together and organizations can grow. And so after I shifted out of that, I joined the startup world joining a company called TATCHA, which is a luxury beauty company, which was rated the fastest growing company in San Francisco in 2015. Was the first people person, built out the team, grew the team a lot. And then shifted out of there into full time consulting working with organizations big and small to be able to help them through values building and change management.

Avantha:           
And then also, a lot of people operations consulting to understand how to be able to structure their own people teams, how to be able to look at what philosophies exist and see how to be able to hire for them and really help them understand what they need out of a people team. After a while I realized I didn't like full time consulting as much. I wanted to go back in house. Which I did joining a company called Avametric which is a 3D computer graphics and simulation company focused on the fashion industry. And as of October, that company was actually acquired. And so now my role is elevated into Director of Talent and Operations for Gerber Technology, which is a much different company. It's 950 people global, has been in the industry for around 60 years. And so they do things very differently and it's been very eyeopening to be able to make change there as well.

Nate:               
You guys obviously have to have a good relationship because you've decided to do this together with me. And as well as professional connection. So maybe talk to me a little bit about how that happened and where your heads are at with regards to the importance of community in HR.

Jessica:           
Yeah, absolutely. So, community is really important, especially I think in the people operations functions and so crucial to find people that kind of speak your language. And can talk you through some of the experiences and challenges. There's a lot to learn from in terms of the people that surround you. Avantha and I first met probably about four years ago at a networking event and we kind of just hit it off right away and decided we had a lot more things that we could talk about together. So we decided to just go get drinks and kind of catch up and get to know each other. Fast forward four years, we have turned that into a monthly happy hour where we actually meet with a small group of women that are also in the same industry as us. And it's become a really safe space where we can catch up, we can laugh together, we could cry together and share our pain points. We can ask each other for help or references, recommendations, even just a sounding board. And then also a lot of venting. You know, oftentimes in these roles there's not really anyone in the company that you can talk to you or should talk to about those types of things. So it's really nice to kind of step outside that and have a safe space of professionals you can really trust. Maybe they've gone through similar things and if not, they're always just there to listen, which is always so helpful.

Nate:               
Yeah. And you know, I've always felt, and one of the reasons that I've started these conversations is just, I feel that there's not enough sharing that happens and I think the more we're able to connect to people who've been through similar things or might be going through similar things, the more the HR product and the people product is just elevated. You know, we can serve our folks much better if we're all sharing information and sort of going through this together. So I love that.

Avantha:           
Yeah. I also think that we all work in tech. Most of us work in tech and these products are doing innovative and crazy and weird things. And so a lot of the problems that pop up for us are crazy and innovative and weird things. And so these are things that no one has really solved the problems for before. And so having that full stack bank of people that you can rely on to be able to soundboard off of and hear and listen and be able to bring resources together to be able to solve weird problems, that pop up has been incredibly valuable to me. And I hope to everyone else.

Jessica:           
Most of the time.

Nate:               
Yeah, exactly. And if nothing else, you get a couple of drinks in you and that's always good.

Avantha:           
Yeah. You get a couple of drinks in, you realize you're not crazy. This is weird.

Nate:               
Yeah, absolutely. So Avantha when we first met you told me that you're passionate about people as a business function. What exactly do you mean by that?

Avantha:           
Yeah, so people as a business function is something that I push forward. It's something that I will always love talking about because I think that people and people operations is just as important to the business and driving the organization as any other function. People are oftentimes the most expensive thing at a company. It's the biggest investment that a company makes. It's the biggest line item on any balance sheet. And you need to make sure that those people are optimized to be able to do their best work to be able to fund in and grow the product, to be able to sell the product, everything like that. Your revenue relies on the people. And so, people as a function should be treated as a business function like anything else. And that means that it should be treated with rigor. It should be treated with the backing and utilize data and be thoughtful about it and it should be invested in as much as any other area.

Jessica:           
Yeah, absolutely. Just to kind of chime in after that is so many people say, "oh, people ops, yeah, they're the, they're the support system behind.. "

Avantha:           
We're the party planners.

Jessica:           
Yeah, no, we're not the support system as much as we do support people. We're a critical element of the business. And I think that's a mind shift that I'd like to see a lot of people geared towards.

Avantha:           
Yeah, absolutely.

Nate:               
Yeah. And that's important. So I think the next logical step to this is, you know, we think of people as a business function. So how do you know what you need from a people team, if that's the case. And when do you know you need these things from a people team? Like you said, we're all out here in the Bay Area currently where there's a lot of growth, there's a lot of companies that are moving really fast and don't have a lot of resources. So talk to me a little bit about how you identify what you currently need from your people team and then when you layer these things in.

Avantha:           
I think the "when" is as soon as possible. And it's a foundational element of what exists at a company and what exists at an organization. If you're hiring for a Head of Product you should be hiring for a Head of People. It's just as important to the growth. It's just important to everything that's occurring. And I like to talk about people and people operations as a multiplier. If you have great talent and have it as a center of excellence at the beginning, it can multiply that, the abilities of the talent that, every other talent you bring to the team.

Nate:               
Yeah, absolutely. So sort of a similar thread, we're talking about small companies growing to large companies. I'm curious about your guys's experiences working at smaller companies, larger companies. Do we all have the same problems or are there some differences there between small companies and big company HR?

Jessica:           
Well, I think you're absolutely right in that we all have problems, but I think they can drastically vary depending on.... There's a thought provoker for you. I think the challenges can definitely differ. On a broad scale I think there's definitely similarities and parallels that you can draw between the two. It totally depends on the company you're at, the size that you're at, where you're at with funding and the challenges that you're going to have being a funded company are going to be much different than one that is completely bootstrapped. Both are obviously going to be under pressure to perform and drive that profitability. But, my experience at a bootstrapped company previously is if we made a mistake, we literally were paying for it and that we typically had to do a round of layoffs or find another project to cut that would help us save that money from the mistake that we just made. So, we definitely do all have problems. But, I think they can vary based on where your locations are, what kind of team members you have, even what industry you're in.

Nate:               
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, my experience I've worked at companies as large as a couple hundred thousand people. I've done projects for companies that are over a million people and I've also worked at companies that are under a thousand. I think the one thing that can get lost at large company HR is just the people part of it. So we're all on people teams, we're all in human resources. And a lot of folks at the large companies unfortunately stop interacting with anybody outside of HR. So that's one thing that I think you could take a small company approach working at a large company and really go out into your facilities or offices or whatever it is and meet people and see what they're dealing with the day to day. And sometimes you can miss that at a large organization.

Avantha:           
Like we've said, the problems are always going to be different in any kind of organization. And at those large organizations, I think you're right. There's this thing in psychology, or actually, I think it's in sociology called Dunbar's number. It's the amount of people that you can have meaningful relationships with at a time. Just as a fact of matter. So once you start growing outside of those, I think the number is 156 and that's including friends, family, everything like that. Once you start growing outside of that, it gets really hard to be able to make sure that everyone's being taken care of. And I think that underlies the fact that every company is very different. But the things that people look for and the things that people want and need, just because people are people, are very similar everywhere. At any organization, you're going to want to be able to make sure that people feel engaged and feel retained and feel like they're being productive. Those are commonalities that exist everywhere. But the ways and hows to be able to do it are always going to be different.

Nate:               
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about this we're talking about issues that are specific to small or large companies or maybe even phases of maturity. Most of the young, new startup companies or many of the companies that are trying to transition to being more of a modern structure are starting to be much more distributed. So you don't have the old everybody works in the same and lives in the same town anymore. You've got a very distributed workforce across the globe. You're dealing with global issues, layering local customs, trying to create diversity and culture across your work sites. So, Jessica, how do you think about this and how do you tackle these challenges in a modern new workforce that is pretty diverse and pretty globalized?

Jessica:           
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's going to be, it already is a trend, but it'll start to be more and more popular. And I think it's definitely the future of the workforce. I try to keep top mind accessibility. Whenever I create experiences or I'm trying to build a team or trying to create a team building experience, I'm trying to think about different ways to involve people in all different levels. I manage an office here in San Francisco as well as one in New York and I have several remote employees across the US too. So when you can incorporate everyone, no matter where they are, it's certainly going to be challenging, but it's going to be so rewarding when everyone feels like they've been considered and valued and that the intention is there.

Nate:               
Yeah, that's interesting. I think that listening too, well just listening in general in HR, it should be extremely core skillset. Surprisingly some people don't possess it. But I think just listening is key. So I had a company I worked for that were all over the world and I was kind of shocked when I went to our London office. They were celebrating the 4th of July. They were hugely into it and they had been doing it for years. And, without us knowing it. We were a US based company. And the point of it is I would never have gone to them and said, "Hey, you guys should celebrate the 4th of July" But they just got really into it on their own. And I think sometimes we're maybe a little bit over sensitized to things and if we just ask people what they want to do, what they think is fun, what they want to the culture to be like, it'll grow and be positive and it's own way.

Avantha:           
I think you highlighted a really key thing that I discovered while doing consulting. It's really, really hard to take something and just be like, I want you to do this this way. It's much, much easier, and systems and dynamics are much more benefited, when things are homegrown. When you look at how things already exist and what people like doing and how people already communicate and already work and be able to bolster it and be able to figure out ways to be able to help it grow and become even better. The fact that they celebrate the 4th of July, yeah, that's something that you'd never would have thought of to be able to say that to do. But, if it's something that excites them, you should be able to figure out ways to support it.

Nate:               
Yeah. Have either of you run into...I've run into a few issues with the, or I guess, problems to solve, with the local culture or customs or laws and rules and regulations or norms within HR and how they conflict with the company's mission. So the example I could give you that's really straight forward is Tesla is obviously a company bent on getting us off of fossil fuels, saving the planet, getting people out of their internal combustion engine cars and into something more sustainable. In the Netherlands, it's extremely common for employers to reimburse you for the amount of gas you have to pay to get to work. So you've got this conflict there. Where it's a normal thing for these employees to expect to be reimbursed for getting in their car and burning up gas. But you've got a company who's mission is to get rid of gas. So why would the company funnel money towards an anti mission if you will. So have you ever run into those issues and how do you sort of slice that cause it can be pretty tricky I'd imagine.

Jessica:         
Yeah, absolutely. We actually just had a conversation about this at our company all hands a couple of weeks ago. But the question was brought up, basically, is the company I work for now going to take a political stance and kind of side with either one party or another. And the cofounders response was basically we're not going to take a political stance but we are going to take a stance when it comes to the issues that matter specifically to us or affect our people. We're a very openminded company. We want to welcome all different types of people no matter where they're from, no matter what kind of education they have, no matter what kind of lifestyle they have. And so when you're trying to draw a hard line, when it comes to something that's so broad, like a political or religious view, you can't do that on a large scale. So we've kind of toned it back and really trying to stick with things that align with the business and things that we actually can make an impact with.

Nate:               
Yeah. So Hobby Lobby is a great example of this, right? So I don't know if you know the story about it, but the ACA required employers to cover contraceptives and Hobby Lobby, lobbied, to get an exception that says because of their religious beliefs, they don't have to cover that. So it's really interesting. So at what point do employers have the ultimate power to decide what they do and what they don't do as long as it's bent within the law, or are there some common truths? So we should all try to adhere to and stay out of people's business. Where does that line go?

Avantha:           
For me at least the line is about protecting. Our jobs are to protect people. Our jobs are to help people do the best work of their life and to be productive and work well. And so the involvement that we have is not just limited to that, but I guess framed to that. And in terms of helping people work better, helping being equitable to all types of people, that's a huge element of what I do and what I want, what I push forward with. And so, I mean, I think it's every company has different ethics and has different establishments of what their ethics are. I think especially if you're vocal about it and you're up front about it, it allows employees to be able to make the decision about whether that makes sense for them.

Nate:               
Yeah. And I think that's a great point. And one of the things that I like to put out there that I've beat the drum on a lot is that, each organization is creating a culture. But even more than that, when you accept a job with a Safeway or a Hobby Lobby or a "name any startup", any company, you're accepting a certain lifestyle. And it's going to work for some people. That could be hours, that could be, you know, features and benefits and pay and what you're working on at that company.

Nate:               
But it's really lifestyle choices and it's okay that every company, hopefully, has a different lifestyle and offers something different for different folks. Because we've got many, many different types of people out there in the world. The other thing that I want to touch on is, you talked about HR and our job is to help people. And so anything we can do to make sure people are assisted and helped, protected. I would put out there that if everybody in our country we're an HR person, maybe we would have a better world.

Avantha:           
I won't argue with that. That's very true. I think people, people tend to be listeners. We tend to be problem solvers and look towards solutions. And so I would agree with you there. I think it's also hard because here in San Francisco and generally working in tech, we've been sheltered by a lot of the outside issues that might occur around the things that we're talking about. Because the talent market is very different. And because we have the ability to, if we don't agree with the values of what our company [stands for], we can go get another company that does align with it. And so it's a much more complicated thing because we work in such a different space.

Nate:               
So shifting gears a little bit, I've looked and seen a lot of what the great innovators in HR are doing and have done over the years and it's pretty amazing. And then having conversations like these just really get me excited. But the more I connect with people I seem to really gravitate towards people who are creative, who have had to find a budget. They don't just have millions of dollars sitting around for nap pods and stuff. They've had to bootstrap their way to success in HR at their companies. Talk to me about your thoughts around that thread, about the ability to get creative and work without a budget to get these things done.

Jessica:           
Yeah, absolutely. I think having constraints can actually really challenge you to think creatively Sometimes if it's just like an open book, an open world, you have a hard time knowing even where to start. So I think in a lot of ways having some kind of constraints or rules that you need to abide by are going to be really helpful. But in terms of being creative it's always a nice challenge. It can get old once you're dealing with it year after year. I don't know if I have any solutions beyond the fact that you really don't need a lot of money to have an event. For example, some of my favorite team building events have honestly just been game nights in the office and people are so willing just to kind of kick back, have some beers and play some games and just giggle and have fun.

Avantha:           
I also think even if you do have more budget and you're lucky enough, to be able to be ROI minded is incredibly beneficial for anyone in our industry. Making sure that you can understand what they're trying to drive towards. What are the metrics that you're trying to drive for? What's the impact that you're trying to bring this organization into this business? If your product team has a whole bunch of creative initiatives that they are trying to build for the next year, how can you create more creativity in the office? How can you have people thinking creatively and then mapping to see how the programs that you're creating and the policies that you're building and the perks and the events that you're doing are driving towards those metrics and those goals allows you to be able to be even more impactful and thoughtful. And I think it just gives a great framework and also then in many ways gives you the ability to have more buy in at an executive level on the things that you want to be able to do. Because you're so business minded about it.

Nate:               
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And what I can hear in both of you is a level of passion and interest in what you're doing. And I think that's kind of part of the secret isn't it? I mean why would you be in HR if you didn't like it or you weren't fired up about it?

Avantha:           
Yeah. Love what you do.

Jessica:           
Absolutely. You really have to love people to actually want to listen and deal with them every day.

Nate:               
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you taking the time and sitting down to talk about this. Hopefully you're going out to your monthly happy hour after, but yeah, thanks for joining.

Both:               
​Thanks for having us.